Subject: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: tarot@notmenetvigator.com (Alan Kwan)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:16:22 GMT
What do you think is the most 'perfect' mahjong hand?
While some players may think that the Thirteen Orphans hand is themost perfect hand, I do not agree. The original Chinese word for awinning mahjong hand means "harmony", referring to the harmoniousstate of the regular hand, with 4 sets and a pair. The ThirteenOrphans hand is the polar opposite of the regular hand: it is the handwhich is the most difficult to develop (by drawing and discarding)into a regular hand. It is not close to the harmonious form of theregular hand at all. It is the exception, so it cannot be theexample.
IMO, the most perfect mahjong hand should be the Sacred Lamp of NineLotus hand, because the calling hand (on which the concept of thepattern is based) is the one which is closest to a regular hand, byvirtue of being the 'easiest' to be completed. The calling hand isthe prime example of all calling hands; it exhibits perfect harmonyand brilliance.
The Sacred Lamp of Nine Lotus is the most perfect hand, so there is noreason that the Thirteen Orphans hand should be given higher prioritythan it, by being able to /chit/ (undercut the claiming of a discard)the former even from a lower seat.
(I'm leaving robbing a concealed kong out of the discussion, becausethe Sacred Lamp of Nine Lotus can never rob any kong at all.)
What do you think? ^_^;
"Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / tarot@notmenetvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core video game reviews)
Tarot Games Hong Kong: http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot/com
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Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: Feico Nater <feico@taaleffect.nl>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:37:01 GMT
On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:16:22 GMT, tarot@notmenetvigator.com (Alan Kwan) wrote inrec.games.mahjong:
>What do you think is the most 'perfect' mahjong hand?4 Red dragons
4 white dragons
4 green dragons
4 East winds
2 of any other wind
4 Seasons
4 Flowers
Held by East wind while East is prevailing.
--
Feico Nater, Netherlands
http://members.home.nl/feiconater
In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch
is offering too little and asking too much.
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: tarot@notmenetvigator.com (Alan Kwan)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:22:51 GMT
On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:37:01 GMT, Feico Nater <feico@taaleffect.nl>wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:16:22 GMT, tarot@notmenetvigator.com (Alan Kwan) wrote in>rec.games.mahjong:
>
>>What do you think is the most 'perfect' mahjong hand?
>
>4 Red dragons
>4 white dragons
>4 green dragons
>4 East winds
>2 of any other wind
>4 Seasons
>4 Flowers
>Held by East wind while East is prevailing.
Oh, how come I'm getting the feeling that you are the Hong Kong personand I am the person living in a quiet European country. ^_^
"Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / tarot@notmenetvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core video game reviews)
Tarot Games Hong Kong: http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot/com
(please remove anti-spam section "notme" from mailing address)
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: Patrick Ho <patho@email.sjsu.edu>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:32:02 -0700
>> >What do you think is the most 'perfect' mahjong hand?
>
> 4 Red dragons
> 4 white dragons
> 4 green dragons
> 4 East winds
> 2 of any other wind
> 4 Seasons
> 4 Flowers
> Held by East wind while East is prevailing.
That's good, but you should also say they are concealed four of a kind. That way youalso get the points for all concealed. It would make it a "kahn kahn woo". The onlyproblem with that hand is if you actually got 4 flowers and 4 seasons, youtechnically already won a really big hand, unless you are playing with no limit andyour hand is worth more. In which that's highly unlikely.
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Date: 25 Jun 2000 15:38:58 +0200
Feico Nater <feico@taaleffect.nl> writes:
>On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:16:22 GMT, tarot@notmenetvigator.com (Alan Kwan) wrote in>rec.games.mahjong:
>>What do you think is the most 'perfect' mahjong hand?
>4 Red dragons
>4 white dragons
>4 green dragons
>4 East winds
>2 of any other wind
>4 Seasons
>4 Flowers
>Held by East wind while East is prevailing.
If these are all concealed, and you win by drawing one of the pairafter the wall is exhausted, I think you have a maximum score:
4 kongs of majors 128
8 bonus tiles 32
selfdraw 2
filling the only place 2
fishing the eyes, major 4
going out 10
Total base score 178
Doubles:
4 flowers 1
4 seasons 1
own flower and own season 1
big 3 dragons 5
double wind 2
all honors 2
all majors 1
no sequenses 1
all concealed 1
3 concealed pongs 1
winning on the roof 1
winning with the last awailable tile 1
total doubles 16
value 178 * 2^16 = 46.661.632
Can anyone do better? Other rules will give other numbers,
but do other rules give their maximum score to a different
hand?
Klaus O K
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Date: 25 Jun 2000 20:46:13 +0200
klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:
>If these are all concealed, and you win by drawing one of the pair>after the wall is exhausted, I think you have a maximum score:
...
>Doubles:...
>winning on the roof 1Oops. I forgot to mention that you must complete the last
kong in the same turn as you win.
Klaus O K
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: Patrick Ho <patho@email.sjsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:23:55 -0700
Yeah, I think I thought of a way to improve on it. It might have alreadybeen mentioned, but I'm not sure. How about a kong into a kong for thelast tile to win? Then you also get points for a kong on kong self-win.
--Patrick
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: Tom Sloper <tsloper@activision.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:48:19 GMT
Alan,
Since every author uses a different name for the special hands in mah-jongg, please define for us which hand you mean by Sacrede Lamp of NineLotus.
Thanks
Tom
tarot@notmenetvigator.com (Alan Kwan) wrote:
>
> What do you think is the most 'perfect' mahjong hand?
>
> > IMO, the most perfect mahjong hand should be the Sacred Lamp of Nine
> Lotus hand
>
> What do you think? ^_^;
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: tarot@notmenetvigator.com (Alan Kwan)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:20:58 GMT
On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:48:19 GMT, Tom Sloper <tsloper@activision.com>wrote:
>Since every author uses a different name for the special hands in mah->jongg, please define for us which hand you mean by Sacrede Lamp of Nine
>Lotus.
The hand which is calling for 9 tiles, with
1112345678999
of one suit in the hand.
"Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / tarot@notmenetvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core video game reviews)
Tarot Games Hong Kong: http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot/com
(please remove anti-spam section "notme" from mailing address)
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: "Tom Sloper" <tsloper@activision.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 02:46:00 GMT
Alan Kwan says that the perfect hand is:
> Sacred Lamp of Nine Lotus> The hand which is calling for 9 tiles, with
> 1112345678999
> of one suit in the hand.
I figured that's what you meant, Alan, but I wanted to be sure. I wouldagree, except that of the 9 possible tiles, 6 of them make the hand"imperfect" (in my opinion). To me, the hand is perfect only if the 9thtile is a 2, 5, or 8. Here's what I mean:
Perfect:
2 - 111 22 345 678 999
5 - 111 234 55 678 999
8 - 111 234 567 88 999
Not perfect:
1 - 1111 2345678 999
3 - 111 23345678 999
4 - 111 23445678 999
6 - 111 23456678 999
7 - 111 23456778 999
9 - 111 2345678 9999
I think it's great that the hand is a 9-way call if you have the exactcombination Alan describes, but (using the same reasoning Alan does inrejecting Thirteen Unique as a perfect hand) the resulting hand is only"perfect" when it's the classic "four sets and a pair."
To me, other perfect hands are the all-green hand and any pure hand, or ahand that's clean with a pung of Double Wind (if you're South and it's theSouth round, for instance).
And since I play the Japanese game a lot, I also have great appreciation forother hands that are not recognized in the Chinese Classical game.
I think a pure all-pung hand would be pretty perfect, too.
In other words, there are several different hands that would fill the billfor my money!
Tom
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: Tuomas T Korppi <korppi@cc.helsinki.fi>
Date: 20 Jun 2000 11:18:00 GMT
Tom Sloper <tsloper@activision.com> wrote:
: Not perfect:
: 1 - 1111 2345678 999
111 123 567 789 99
: 3 - 111 23345678 999
11 123 345 678 999
: 4 - 111 23445678 999
111 234 456 789 99
: 6 - 111 23456678 999
11 123 456 678 999
: 7 - 111 23456778 999
111 234 567 789 99
: 9 - 111 2345678 9999
11 123 456 789 999
: the resulting hand is only
: "perfect" when it's the classic "four sets and a pair."
--
http://www.helsinki.fi/%7ekorppi/ TUOMAS
Nevermore.
- the Raven
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: Tuomas T Korppi <korppi@cc.helsinki.fi>
Date: 20 Jun 2000 11:19:15 GMT
Tuomas T Korppi <korppi@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote:
: : 1 - 1111 2345678 999
: 111 123 567 789 99
mistake: 111 123 456 789 99
: --
: http://www.helsinki.fi/%7ekorppi/ TUOMAS:
: Nevermore.
: - the Raven
--
http://www.helsinki.fi/%7ekorppi/ TUOMAS
Nevermore.
- the Raven
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: "Tom Sloper" <actsearch@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:50:09 -0700
A kind soul has pointed out to me, offline, that I was an idiot when Iwrote:
> Not perfect:>
> 1 - 1111 2345678 999
> 3 - 111 23345678 999
> 4 - 111 23445678 999
> 6 - 111 23456678 999
> 7 - 111 23456778 999
> 9 - 111 2345678 9999
It goes like this:
1 - 111 123 456 789 99
3 - 11 123 345 678 999
4 - 111 234 456 789 99
6 - 11 123 456 678 999
7 - 111 234 567 789 99
9 - 11 123 456 789 999
Four sets and a pair, every time! So it is indeed a perfect hand.
The next sound you hear is me slapping my forehead...
<slap!>
Tom
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: Cofa Tsui <cofatsui@my-deja.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 04:40:19 GMT
Alan Kwan asked: What do you think is the most 'perfect' mahjong hand?
Certainly the Sacred Lamp of Nine Lotus
> The hand which is calling for 9 tiles, with> 1112345678999
> [and with] "Four sets and a pair, every time!"
is indeed a perfect hand.
[I could not open deja.com for the past few days for some reasons!]
The above hand is perfect in (a) the way it is calling; and (b) thepattern it is to present.
There is perhaps another way to measure the "perfection" of a hand,namely, (a) to make the ultimate use of ALL possible tiles; and (b) winthe highest allowed scores.
How about a hand that was itself the "Thirteen Orphans hand", and waswon on a "Concealed Kong in lieu of discarding the last tile" of theGame?
Cheers!
--
COFA TSUI
"IMJ Rules" - Answers your questions about rule, ALL BY ONE RULEBOOK- Now available in PDF format (download file from IMJ Web Site).<http://www.cofatsui.com/mahjong.html>
--
COFA TSUI
"IMJ Rules" - Answers your questions about rule, ALL BY ONE RULEBOOK- Now available in PDF format (download file from IMJ Web Site).<http://www.cofatsui.com/mahjong.html>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: tarot@notmenetvigator.com (Alan Kwan)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 05:19:56 GMT
Oh Tom, the hand (Sacred Lamp of Nine Lotus) is considered special and
recognized as a limit pattern /because/ it can make a regular handwith any of the 9 tiles ...
^_^;
(Tom, what is your functional e-mail address?)
On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:50:09 -0700, "Tom Sloper" <actsearch@aol.com>wrote:
>wrote:
>
>> Not perfect:
>>
>> 1 - 1111 2345678 999
>> 3 - 111 23345678 999
>> 4 - 111 23445678 999
>> 6 - 111 23456678 999
>> 7 - 111 23456778 999
>> 9 - 111 2345678 9999
>
>It goes like this:
>
> 1 - 111 123 456 789 99
> 3 - 11 123 345 678 999
> 4 - 111 234 456 789 99
> 6 - 11 123 456 678 999
> 7 - 111 234 567 789 99
> 9 - 11 123 456 789 999
>
>Four sets and a pair, every time! So it is indeed a perfect hand.
>
>The next sound you hear is me slapping my forehead...
>
><slap!>
Did you hit a mosquito? ^_^
"Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / tarot@notmenetvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core video game reviews)
Tarot Games Hong Kong: http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot/com
(please remove anti-spam section "notme" from mailing address)
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: "Tom Sloper" <tsloper@activision.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:06:38 GMT
Alan Kwan wrote:
> Oh Tom, the hand (Sacred Lamp of Nine Lotus) is considered special and> recognized as a limit pattern /because/ it can make a regular hand
> with any of the 9 tiles ...
>
> ^_^;
Yes. (sigh) Herewith I slap my forehead again, this time in Japanese.
"Chikusho! <slap!>"
> Did you hit a mosquito? ^_^No, my aim was true. Nothing but forehead got slapped.
> (Tom, what is your functional e-mail address?)The actsearch@aol.com address is discontinued. It isn't still showing up onmy posts, is it? If it is, I need to change my signature. My work emailaddress is tsloper@activision.com, and my home email address istomster@mediaone.net. Group regulars are welcome to email me at either one.
Tom
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: "Tom Sloper" <tsloper@activision.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:23:09 -0700
Tom Sloper <tsloper@activision.com> wrote
> The actsearch@aol.com address is discontinued. It isn't still showing upon> my posts, is it? If it is, I need to change my signature. My work email
> address is tsloper@activision.com, and my home email address is
> tomster@mediaone.net. Group regulars are welcome to email me at eitherone.
I found and corrected that. You shouldn't again see that old discontinuedaddress from me.
Tom
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: tarot@notmenetvigator.com (Alan Kwan)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:57:10 GMT
On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:06:38 GMT, "Tom Sloper"
<tsloper@activision.com> wrote:
>
>"Chikusho! <slap!>"
Tom, some small Japanese kids may be reading this newsgroup, so youshould mask the swearword by saying /doubutsu/. ^_^;
"Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / tarot@notmenetvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core video game reviews)
Tarot Games Hong Kong: http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot/com
(please remove anti-spam section "notme" from mailing address)
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: "Tom Sloper" <tsloper@activision.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 07:18:08 GMT
I had written:
> >Herewith I slap my forehead again, this time in Japanese.> >
> >"Chikusho! <slap!>"
To which Alan replied:
> Tom, some small Japanese kids may be reading this newsgroup, so you> should mask the swearword by saying /doubutsu/. ^_^;
I hope the group will not object to me requesting a quick Japanese lesson.
1. I take it "chikusho" is a naughty word, then? All I know is it's a thingone says when slapping one's forehead. I learned it a long time ago -- andit's been very useful for me to use whenever I make a mistake (which I havedone quite often). What does it mean, literally?
2. "doubutsu koen" means "zoo," and "koen" means "park," so I assume"doubutsu" means "animal."
3. How do I "mask" this? By saying "doubutsu chikusho" or by saying"chikusho doubutsu" or by saying "doubutsu" instead of chikusho"???
Oshiete kudasai!
Tom
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: Naoki Haga <naoki@kyodai.com.no-spam>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:29:52 GMT
On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 07:18:08 GMT, "Tom Sloper"
<tsloper@activision.com> wrote:
>> should mask the swearword by saying /doubutsu/. ^_^;
>
>I hope the group will not object to me requesting a quick Japanese lesson.
>
>1. I take it "chikusho" is a naughty word, then?
Yes. Litterally, it means "devil". But it's mainly used as anequivalent to "sh*t", "damn !", or any word of this kind. Otherequivalents are "Shimatta" ("Too bad", but it's somehow seen asslang), "Kuso" (which is the direct translation of "sh*t" ;)), etc.
>All I know is it's a thing>one says when slapping one's forehead. I learned it a long time ago -- and
>it's been very useful for me to use whenever I make a mistake (which I have
>done quite often). What does it mean, literally?
As I said, devil ;)
But another dictionary of mine would rather litterally translate it by"beast" or "brute".
>"doubutsu" means "animal."
Yes.
>3. How do I "mask" this? By saying "doubutsu chikusho" or by saying>"chikusho doubutsu" or by saying "doubutsu" instead of chikusho"???
I guess it's about the "beast" meaning... So you may say dôbutsuinstead of chikushô I guess ;)
--
René-Gilles Deberdt (Naoki)
Kyodai Mahjongg 3D v12.00, http://kyodai.com/
Cyber Namida, http://kyodai.com/namida/
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: tarot@notmenetvigator.com (Alan Kwan)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:41:08 GMT
On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:29:52 GMT, Naoki Haga
<naoki@kyodai.com.no-spam> wrote:
><tsloper@activision.com> wrote:
>
>>> Tom, some small Japanese kids may be reading this newsgroup, so you
>>> should mask the swearword by saying /doubutsu/. ^_^;
>>
>>I hope the group will not object to me requesting a quick Japanese lesson.
>>
>>1. I take it "chikusho" is a naughty word, then?
>
>Yes. Litterally, it means "devil". But it's mainly used as an
>equivalent to "sh*t", "damn !", or any word of this kind. Other
>equivalents are "Shimatta" ("Too bad", but it's somehow seen as
>slang), "Kuso" (which is the direct translation of "sh*t" ;)), etc.
>
>>All I know is it's a thing
>>one says when slapping one's forehead. I learned it a long time ago -- and
>>it's been very useful for me to use whenever I make a mistake (which I have
>>done quite often). What does it mean, literally?
>
>As I said, devil ;)
>But another dictionary of mine would rather litterally translate it by
>"beast" or "brute".
My prized /kango/ dictionary gives the literal meaning of "animal".
"Beast" is a bit off because the definition includes relatively tameanimals such as chicken.
>>2. "doubutsu koen" means "zoo," and "koen" means "park," so I assume>>"doubutsu" means "animal."
>
>Yes.
>
>>3. How do I "mask" this? By saying "doubutsu chikusho" or by saying
>>"chikusho doubutsu" or by saying "doubutsu" instead of chikusho"???
>
>I guess it's about the "beast" meaning... So you may say dôbutsu
>instead of chikushô I guess ;)
Instead of. In fact, this is one of the jokes in Dreamcast mahjonggame "Idol Jyanshi wo Tsukucchao". An apparent primary school kid wasbeing corrected by an elder for her swearing. She was made to say"doubutsu" instead of "chikusho", and "unchi" instead of "kuso".^_^
"Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / tarot@notmenetvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core video game reviews)
Tarot Games Hong Kong: http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot/com
(please remove anti-spam section "notme" from mailing address)
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: jsorva@niksula.hut.fi (Juha Sorva)
Date: 22 Jun 00 15:04:33 GMT
Hello,
Alan Kwan wrote:
> The hand which is calling for 9 tiles, with
> 1112345678999
> of one suit in the hand.
I definitely agree that this hand, whatever you call it, is theperfect mahjongg hand. The big question is: has someone actuallyever completed it? :)
At our little mahjongg club, we have decided to collectively buyan honorary trophy for the first of us to win with a Nine Gateshand (as we call it). :)
Tom Sloper wrote:
> To me, other perfect hands are the all-green hand [...]
Hmm, I have to say that to me the all-green hand seems like avery imperfect combination in the sense that the green tiles are,it seems, randomly scattered across the bamboo suit. There's nosymmetry (and symmetry, to me, would be an essential requirementof a perfect hand). This leads to an interesting question: isthere actually some reason for those particular tiles to becompletely green?
Cheers,
Juha
(Checking this newsgroup again after a looong break. Looks likethe regulars are still around...:))
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: Tom Sloper <tsloper@activision.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:18:48 GMT
Juha wrote:
> Hmm, I have to say that to me the all-green hand seems like a veryimperfect combination in the sense that the green tiles are, it seems,randomly scattered across the bamboo suit. There's no symmetry (andsymmetry, to me, would be an essential requirement of a perfect hand).
Yes, I agree that there is arguably a minor imperfection in that onlythe 2, 3, 4, 6, and 8 tiles are entirely green. But to me the thingthat's so perfect about the hand is that the tiles in it are, um, allgreen.
> This leads to an interesting question: is there actually some reasonfor those particular tiles to be completely green?
I think this tradition comes about for ease of reading the tiles. Justas the dots tiles have different colored dots. Notice how the redstick in the 5 is centered, and the red stick in the 7 is off byitself. Then notice how the 9 has 3 red sticks. At a quick glance,you can tell the 5 from the 7 from the 9 even though there are a lot ofsticks on the tile face, due to this strategic placement of red sticks.
BTW, not all sets followed this tradition. There are older sets thatuse a different coloring scheme than what has now become the standardworldwide.
Cheers
Tom
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: Tuomo Salo <tasalo@k.almamedia.fi>
Date: 26 Jun 2000 20:40:52 +0300
jsorva@niksula.hut.fi (Juha Sorva) writes:
> Alan Kwan wrote:> > The hand which is calling for 9 tiles, with
> > 1112345678999
> > of one suit in the hand.
>
> I definitely agree that this hand, whatever you call it, is the
> perfect mahjongg hand. The big question is: has someone actually
> ever completed it? :)
Close, but no cigar.
I once had concealed 1234455678999 after only 7 rounds of discards(would have had plenty of time to draw those 1s..) but then someonediscarded a 5, and I just had to claim that, as I was at -1000 pointsat the time..
> an honorary trophy for the first of us to win with a Nine Gates
> hand (as we call it). :)
Someday I'll claim that trophy..
Actually I'm posting this just to keep this thread up, since Juha wasthere when I got that hand. :-)
-Tuomo
ps.
Our club does not count overall score directly by just adding all thescores up. Instead we use a (very complex looking) formula that makes asingle match's result more important, and that is why it mattersthat I was 1000 points down then.
Subject: Re: the most perfect mahjong hand
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Date: 25 Jun 2000 08:56:30 +0200
Very much a matter of definition. Perfect in what way?
One hand can be 7 of Millington's 18 special limit hands.
(There are at least 6 ways in which this can be done).
Is not such a hand perfect? Unless of course someone
comes up with a combination of 8.
Klaus O K
